User talk:Opark 77/Archive 1
Welcome Hi, welcome to Game of Thrones Wiki! Thanks for your edit to the Fire and Blood page. We welcome all contributions to the Wiki but please be aware of the following simple rules: 1) This wiki is meant for the Game of Thrones TV series and the TV alone. Spoilers from the novels are not permitted at all. Discussion of earlier events in the novels and the use of non-spoiler background material from the novel as regards specific events, characters and places in the TV series are allowed (in the 'In the books' section of an article) but future events cannot be discussed. 2) This wiki has specific permission from HBO's marketing department to use a reasonable number of promotional images and screencaps from the series to illustrate articles. The use of other copyrighted images is not permitted without either specific permission or fair use attributions. For example, this Wiki cannot use Amoka's portrait images or Ted Nasmith's castle pictures as these are copyrighted. In addition, the Wiki is focused on the TV series and TV series alone. Images from other media should be avoided without a very good cause. Enjoy your editing and please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! -- Buffymybasset (Talk) 2011-11-17T23:34:55 Infoboxes Unfortunately I haven't had time to really edit at the GoT Wiki (Super Busy), but I will be back once the show returns in a few months :) You might want to forward this question to user:Werthead He could help you more than I could. Hope this helps. Thanks. 22:58, January 20, 2012 (UTC) Seasons I don't mind moving them back to Seasons, though 'Season 1' and 'Season 2' do redirect there anyway. IIRC KarinS moved them to 'Overview' for some reason related to templates, so it might be an idea to check with her to see why it was done.--Werthead 18:35, January 22, 2012 (UTC) Hi Opark, When I overhauled the existing categories and started to reorganize pages, I quickly discovered that it was rather confusing to use a term or phrase both as a page title and as a category. Hence this solution. And as Werthead says, there's a proper redirect. Hope this answers your question... KarinS 11:32, January 31, 2012 (UTC) page I like it! If you look on my True Blood Wiki you will see on the character pages, that I also don't have large subsections of episodes, I do have a small crossref guide after paragraphs that explain which episode was just discussed- if you want to check it out! Good work! I can't wait for the show to come back! I will be on much more then :) 19:47, February 9, 2012 (UTC) Admin You now have Admin powers. Welcome to the team :-) --Werthead 20:38, February 14, 2012 (UTC) Blocking and Spoilers Regarding your revert and your block, I find it peculiar that you would: # Block a person without a warning. # Claim I posted spoilers, while all I did was to provide a link to additional information, following the exact same format that is present on every other page on the wiki(i know because I copy/pasted it from another page) with the "MAJOR spoilers from the book" warning. also as a side note, there so real point in blocking a dynamic IP, thanks 00:03, February 16, 2012 (UTC) :That revert and that block relate to two different IP addresses and two different edits. I reverted the insertion of the link by 132.72.45.21 because the title of the Wiki of Ice and Fire article as it stands is a mild spoiler to TV only viewers. I don't think you putting it in was intended to insert spoilers so I didn't block you. The block relates to IP User 192.136.16.3 who inserted much more blatant and serious spoilers with these edits 1, 2 and 3. Are you saying that you made all 4 of those edits or are you just confused about who I blocked and why? ::If I did, it would be stupid of me to admit it ;) But no, those edit was not made by me, I was simply confused the IP's as I was scrolling through the long list of history, trying to figure out why you reverted my edit, a measure usually reserved for vandalism and one which does not include a summary text. I understand now, I guess this wont be a problems after the next season. thanks. 00:37, February 16, 2012 (UTC) :::No problem. I should have been more clear why I reverted. Thanks for flagging it up.--Opark 77 00:41, February 16, 2012 (UTC) :Regarding blocking without warning - we commonly do that here for IP users who insert spoilers. I consider the obvious spoiler policy on the front page fair warning. I'm also following a precedent originating with the other admins here. Check out the block log here. If you'd like to improve the way we handle spoiler vandalism then sign up, make us a warning template and I'll happily champion using it to the other admins. I was relatively lenient this time in that I blocked for a week and offered the IP the chance to come back after that. We typically block for 1 year.--Opark 77 00:10, February 16, 2012 (UTC) : Licensing information for map images The original map (the blank template map) was created by a poster at Westeros.org for the Wiki of Ice and Fire and uploaded there for free use. I used it with his permission. I recoloured it (the original was green and white) and adjusted the colours for the different region maps.--Werthead 11:37, February 16, 2012 (UTC) Hi Owen, Thanks for the response. Yes, that sounds great! Want to send me 5 questions with 4 multiple choice answers for each question ?! We will review/approve and then we will handle creating the various images and programming the quiz module for you. My recommendation is to make the questions get progressively more difficult, this way people can enjoy playing it more than once! Look forward to seeing what you come up with, thanks so much... User:Bchwood Season 2 Prep Since Werthead hasn't responded, and my deadline is tomorrow :( what DIDN'T sound good from what I mentioned? I'm building the headers now, and including all your suggestions of course. What about adding a "Contributing" section to give a little guidance and direction as far as editing here? I notice you have a nice list of help & policy links in the nav menu, perhaps you feel a main page section would be overkill? I'll make the section header anyway just in case. I just want to make sure I do only the things you approve of, and DON'T do any of the things you're opposed to. :http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o297/SCOTIMUS76/siggy3.png (profile)•(talk)•( ) 22:39, February 19, 2012 (UTC) ::Okay, So... I think I covered everything we discussed (1-6). Additionally, I updated some of the character portal images by using the higher resolution images I got from HBO seen in the gallery here, taking care to use the same portraits. I also made a minor (2px) adjustment to the Character Portal Template because the images were not displaying centered. I'm sure you'll want to refine the "Contributing" section, I just put up a very rough and generalized version as a sort of placeholder. I updated the header in Template:Latest episode, and I created Template:Episodes to see what you thought of having both latest and next. Since adding the "Featured Article" section and fixing the "News" section made the right column much longer, I used it to balance things out on the left side. ::Obviously, you are free to move, modify, delete, and otherwise pick apart anything I've done at your own discretion. ::I did email HBO Media Relations about a comprehensive cast list, but they are a large company, so who knows if they will respond to a request like that. We can only hope. :::http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o297/SCOTIMUS76/siggy3.png (profile)•(talk)•( ) 07:40, February 22, 2012 (UTC) HBO Media Relations I actually received a reply from the media relations email address, directing me to the proper individual who is in charge of Game of Thrones media. I have emailed this individual requesting a comprehensive cast listing, so I will keep you informed if I hear anything from them. :http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o297/SCOTIMUS76/siggy3.png (profile)•(talk)•( ) 22:02, February 22, 2012 (UTC) House of Stark Family Tree Opark, User:XD1 is the master coder and should be able to help you out on this... User:Bchwood :I quick-fixed it temporarily with a negative margin (which you can adjust to suit you), I'll take a closer look at it tomorrow with the true master. ::http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o297/SCOTIMUS76/siggy3.png (profile)•(talk)•( ) 04:03, February 24, 2012 (UTC) :::Better? ::::http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o297/SCOTIMUS76/siggy3.png (profile)•(talk)•( ) 01:24, February 25, 2012 (UTC) Tommy Dunne Interesting. My first thought was that he is Mikken and has been made to look a lot older. He's bald so the hair could have been added as a prosthetic. However, on closer examination I think you're right. Which is curious as SciFiNow said exactly the same thing when they interviewed Dunne last month for their print issue (they visited the Paint Hall and talked to a lot of behind-the-scenes people).--Werthead 19:07, March 1, 2012 (UTC) :Ah, Mikken is played by Boyd Rankin. Westeros.org used their contacts with HBO to find out.--Werthead 19:08, March 1, 2012 (UTC) Joyeuse is definitely Kelly Long. She has a Twitter and is an active member of the Irish ASoIaF fan community :-) I can ask HBO directly about the others. I need to renew my contact with them anyway, as they were helpful during the airing of the first season (especially giving us permission to use the screencaps). --Werthead 21:45, March 2, 2012 (UTC) Cast Portal Something I overlooked before, the cast portal border radius was only coded to work in Firefox, so I fixed it to work in other browsers as well. Without the fix, other browsers display all rectangles and no curves. :http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o297/SCOTIMUS76/siggy3.png (profile)•(talk)•( ) 05:07, March 2, 2012 (UTC) Skin of Thrones It definitely has potential, possibly if we rotate it clockwise a bit so that more of the crown art would be visible down the right side, and split it so that some of the crown is on the left side... Would have to dig into it to really see what would look best. Did you want me to take a stab at it? :http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o297/SCOTIMUS76/siggy3.png (profile)•(talk)•( ) 18:19, March 2, 2012 (UTC) ::Okay, I'll build up one/some. Seems like that might warrant a color scheme change... Have to see once it's finished. :::http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o297/SCOTIMUS76/siggy3.png (profile)•(talk)•( ) 01:57, March 5, 2012 (UTC) Westeros Fanfiction Wiki Hello Opark77, I'm asking to please promote my new fan fiction site as the founder and admin of 'game of thrones' wiki . I am also asking you to consider joining and/or tell anyone who wishes to join about "Westeros Fan Fiction Wiki" which is my new wiki site allows people to write about anything fiction that can or could happen in George R R Martin's world of Westeros. I tried to promote this on a song of ice and fire wiki, but with no luck for over a week as no one has been on it at all. I have included codes and diagrams from 'a wiki of ice and fire' which helps develop the site better and added a couple of recommended sites to help progress through. you can enter the wiki through this link Thank you for reading (especially thank you if you join the wiki) AdamantiumBladez Hi Owen, the are great! We're just waiting to hear back from a potential sponsor for the Quiz, which we are going to run with or without a sponsor! Will be in touch soon as I know more... User:Bchwood Sorry, I just asumed seeing as you are the no.1 ranked on the wiki, plus Werthead, occording to the wiki, has not been online for a long while. Anyways I hoped that you wouldn't mind, even if as you siad it wasn't your type of thing, to just help me inform people that it exists. I tried on a song of ice and fire wiki with a blog entry, but no one has been editing on it or even leaving a message so I have no idea if anyone had been reading it. I know it sounds like a lot to ask of someone, but I am clueless. I would really hate to have wasted my time creating the wiki and putting in all the added effort to make the wiki as useful as possible. thank you for your patience, especially reading such a mouthful AdamantiumBladez Thank you very much for your help AdamantiumBladez Vassal Houses Categories I answered at the forum.--Gonzalo84 17:36, March 9, 2012 (UTC) Knight of House Whent Per the example of Eon Hunter, I propose to rename "Knight of House Whent" as "Willis Wode".--Gonzalo84 18:05, March 10, 2012 (UTC) * And "Man of Houe Bracken" as Kurleket. What do you think?.--Gonzalo84 18:06, March 10, 2012 (UTC) Speculative names and titles I think we need to put a pin in the naming of characters not named in the script or on-screen, or the creation of a page for every minor unnamed character. I like the idea in theory of going for total completeness, and the 'this is a character name we're nicking from the books, it might not be accurate' template, but I think we should really only be including 100% confirmed information from the TV show. Speculation should be kept to a minimum and we shouldn't be naming articles on a purely speculative basis. For the unnamed characters who have descriptors, I think a banner article could be a better way of going forwards (especially since, over 7-8 seasons, there may be dozens of 'Lannister guardsmen' and 'Stark guardsmen' characters), i.e. having a 'Lannister guardsmen' page with the different actors and characters listed on it, rather than one page for each individual. As such characters like Eon Hunter could be moved to a 'bannermen/knights of the Vale' page and so on. --Werthead 18:31, March 12, 2012 (UTC) :No, we don't have access to the scripts, although the end credits of each episode do reflect the names and titles given to characters in the scripts. If you are happy to keep on top of the situation as it stands now, I'll go along with that, but we need to keep an eye out for the information changing. For example, I'm very interested to see if Steven Blount will continue to appear as a Stark bannerman in Season 2, as this will mean his Season 1 role was not Karstark but another, generic lord. That kind of thing is something we need to keep an eye on.--Werthead 20:33, March 12, 2012 (UTC) ::Oh yeah, they don't show the character names/descriptions in the end credits. They do in the official information HBO sends out to various TV websites when the episode first airs, although not always with full information included.--Werthead 17:09, March 13, 2012 (UTC) Skinz Okay, so this was more challenging than I had anticipated. All the ideas I had when I first saw the poster don't seem to look right once I see them in effect, but here is probably the best one so far: GoT BG example. This is only an example of the concept, the content area transparency probably needs adjustment to fine tune image visibility vs. text readability. More concept examples: *Example 2 *Example 3 *Example 4 Let me know what you think, or if you'd like to go in a different direction. Also, how would you feel about me being an admin here? I have no intention of coming in and trying to change policy or anything, I just love the show and I'd like to be more available to the users of this wiki for help or Q & A. :http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o297/SCOTIMUS76/siggy3.png (profile)•(talk)•( ) 20:29, March 12, 2012 (UTC) ::These are all in need of minor adjustment, the concept is what I was trying to convey. #2 would still be visible, the ratio you speak of it specific to the individual user. Part of the trouble designing backgrounds is making them look good for all users. My screen resolution is 1600x900, giving me 300px of background on either side. Someone running 1080 HD will have a resolution of 1920x1080 - giving them 460px on either side, and someone on a macbook will have more like 200px. I made Example 2 wider just to show more of the hand for those in higher resolutions, but the main image will still be visible next to the content area. If you want to put the concepts to a vote, that would be great - any changes I'd make to what you've seen would be very minor, and more to satisfy my version of OCD. :P :::http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o297/SCOTIMUS76/siggy3.png (profile)•(talk)•( ) 21:31, March 12, 2012 (UTC) ::::No rush, this is a project that I created, and I didn't set a due date. ;) :::::http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o297/SCOTIMUS76/siggy3.png (profile)•(talk)•( ) 01:02, March 13, 2012 (UTC) :::::Sorry to butt in, but Example 4 is REALLY cool ;) (and hi XD1) 14:10, March 13, 2012 (UTC) I've started a discussion of these skins at Forum: Proposal for a new skin for anyone interested.--Opark 77 14:50, March 13, 2012 (UTC) ::Sure, anytime - just say the word. I'm going to have to tweak some things for the color change though. Right off the top of my head, the character portal on the main page, and the quiz answer bar color. Also, I'll do a new slider pic for the quiz. What did you think of the new Wordmark logo? :::http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o297/SCOTIMUS76/siggy3.png (profile)•(talk)•( ) 20:54, March 29, 2012 (UTC) :::Okay, everything is up. I can't get the Wordmark to stick in theme designer right now for some reason, probably an internal caching issue. I'll try again a bit later. Let me know if there are any color changes you need help with, the link/header color is #F19116, and the button/portal/poll bar color is #6A1E1E. ::::http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o297/SCOTIMUS76/siggy3.png (profile)•(talk)•( ) 03:12, March 30, 2012 (UTC) ::::My pleasure, I just wish the damned wordmark would save. Here it is, maybe you should dl it & try - who knows... :::::http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o297/SCOTIMUS76/siggy3.png (profile)•(talk)•( ) 08:50, March 30, 2012 (UTC) Direwolves Thank you :) Just came to me. :) I will be around more after April 1st to do my Admin duties! I am SO excited about Season 2!!!!! 14:06, March 13, 2012 (UTC) The watchers at the wall could be a good idea too :) 14:12, March 13, 2012 (UTC) Just saw that- and just did it! :) Queeny Categorize Noble Houses also by region What do you think?--Gonzalo84 20:00, March 13, 2012 (UTC) Images Thanks for explaining that to me! I hope I did it better this time :) LexiLexi 21:33, March 15, 2012 (UTC) :( But they are in costume/in chararcter and so beautiful- and the quality is so much better :( 08:22, March 17, 2012 (UTC) But who is to say they wont look like that in Season 2- it has yet to be seen. And the images didn't need to be renamed, because they are promotional shots from Season 2, not 1, or 3... ya know? Doesn't matter where they came from- they are GoT promotional shots and are better quality- in my opinion anyway. 08:33, March 17, 2012 (UTC) Whatever- Guess what you say goes now. 08:35, March 17, 2012 (UTC) Well, HBO needs to pick up their game a bit- because EW just blew them away as far as images. The quality, the poses, everything is epic. The newest from HBO are horrible- in my own opinion. night. 08:42, March 17, 2012 (UTC) (But they do need to be marked Magazine shoot for Season 2 at least. not just renamed MagazineEW) Trust me, I do understand. On the True Blood Wiki I run, only HBO promo shots are infobox images because they look better than screencaps. I just figured any promo shot (regardless where found) that currently looked better could work- but if you feel the fair-use thing is an issue, I understand. Maybe HBO will release some better quality images of the characters in weeks to come. 18:54, March 17, 2012 (UTC) Images Not a problem. Not sure if any of that was useful, but it's my opinion for better or for worse. :http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o297/SCOTIMUS76/siggy3.png (profile)•(talk)•( ) 20:25, March 18, 2012 (UTC) Starter Guide So... the entertainment manager here had an idea to create a kind of "Starter Guide" for the series. This would target users who missed the first season entirely (having read the book(s) or not) and want a brief overview of season 1, as well as those who haven't seen anything since the season finale last year and want a brief refresher before the S2 premiere. He saw this table in EW, and wanted to do something like it using the family tree system you figured out. I'm thinking it would probably be a lot easier for me to create an image & just make an imagemap out of it. :P If you feel this would be a handy page to have (which we would link to from near the top of the season 1 page), I can start work on it - otherwise, if it's a "no," they'll probably have me create it as a blog. What do you think of this idea? :http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o297/SCOTIMUS76/siggy3.png (profile)•(talk)•( ) 01:08, March 20, 2012 (UTC) ::Here's the guide I was talking about - Season 1 refresher guide - not sure where you think it should live. Let me know if you see anything in it that needs adjusting. ::I'm going to hit up the guru today about those templates, I wasn't able to reach him yesterday. :::http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o297/SCOTIMUS76/siggy3.png (profile)•(talk)•( ) 13:57, March 26, 2012 (UTC) ::::Good stuff! I was pretty burned out by the time I got to the character blurbs, a fresh pair of eyes was just what I needed, I'll get to work on those changes. What color for Targaryen then if Lannister goes red? :::::http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o297/SCOTIMUS76/siggy3.png (profile)•(talk)•( ) 21:23, March 26, 2012 (UTC) I really liked having Jon as black (obvious Night's Watch reference) but the Targaryen dilemma is a tough one, and I do like matching the colors up. How about making Jon green, but darkening his green so it's obviously "blacker" than the rest of the Starks? Then Targaryen is free to be black/grey. :http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o297/SCOTIMUS76/siggy3.png (profile)•(talk)•( ) 21:39, March 26, 2012 (UTC) :Okay, see what you think: Season 1 refresher guide. ::http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o297/SCOTIMUS76/siggy3.png (profile)•(talk)•( ) 22:28, March 26, 2012 (UTC) Stark navbox I really like it, though i think it can get too cumbersome. Maybe smaller letters would do the trick. As for the "allies", don't you think that since the Riverlords also bent the knee to Robb they should also be counted as "vassals"? And what could we do about the Baratheons? Separate navboxes for each faction like in AWOIAF? A single box could be problematic considering we have the Lannisters supporting Joffrey, the Tyrells and Stormlords supporting Renly and the Narrow Sea Houses supporting Stannis.--Gonzalo84 17:30, March 20, 2012 (UTC) Great Houses Navbox We should include a space for exiled and extinct houses, taking into consideration what will happen in the future and the targaryens, casterlys, gardeners, hoares. Also, the icon of KL Baratheons.--Gonzalo84 04:57, March 21, 2012 (UTC) Preston Greenfield I've checked the book, the only two references to Preston Greenfield are when Eddard arrives to a Council session and after Robert names Ned as Regent.--Gonzalo84 05:16, March 21, 2012 (UTC) Stuff Quiz We've built a Season 1 quiz just as a fun, interactive feature for fans, wasn't sure if you'd want to feature it on the main page somewhere as part of the build-up to season 2. Here is an introductory blog, in case you want to link to that instead: Blog ::What do you think of replacing the 1st or second slider image with the image from the blog? (I can change the size so it works) If it was in the first slot, the large text could still say "Season 2 draws close" (near?) & the small text could change to say "Test your knowledge of season 1!" :::http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o297/SCOTIMUS76/siggy3.png (profile)•(talk)•( ) 10:48, March 21, 2012 (UTC) ::::Done! :) :::::http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o297/SCOTIMUS76/siggy3.png (profile)•(talk)•( ) 10:59, March 21, 2012 (UTC) New poster Not sure if you've seen the new poster, but it might be a nice add to the background we're trying to settle on. Here is an example of a possible 5th choice, I made the crown a little smaller so that more of it can be seen for users with lower screen resolutions: Example 5 :http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o297/SCOTIMUS76/siggy3.png (profile)•(talk)•( ) 10:18, March 21, 2012 (UTC) Quiz Owen, What do you think???? http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:XD1/Game_of_Thrones_Quiz Peter 15:56, March 21, 2012 (UTC) War of the Four Kings article Should we move it to "five kings" per Tywin's commentary in the previews? Or wait until "we know who" also makes his move? Technically, that character has already also claimed a throne (offscreen) so?--Gonzalo84 17:54, March 23, 2012 (UTC) Tanx Thank you, sir! :http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o297/SCOTIMUS76/siggy3.png (profile)•(talk)•( ) 19:51, March 23, 2012 (UTC) House Navboxes Are we removing them?--Gonzalo84 15:58, March 24, 2012 (UTC) : I think you knocked off the one in Renly's article. And while we are at it, I'm thinking on creating vassal houses infoboxes to better differentiate them. And adding overlords as well as even the Great Houses owe allegiance to a King. --Gonzalo84 16:09, March 24, 2012 (UTC) :: I think House navboxes shouldn't be included in House articles since they are a repeat of the House infobox information.--Gonzalo84 16:18, March 24, 2012 (UTC) :::I'll have a look, and if I don't see a solution right away, I'll hit up our resident coding prodigy & see what he thinks. ::::http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o297/SCOTIMUS76/siggy3.png (profile)•(talk)•( ) 19:45, March 25, 2012 (UTC) Would have gotten back to you on this sooner, but the coding whiz I normally defer to has been off for a few days. Not sure when he'll be back, but it should be the next day or two. Just didn't want you to think I'd forgotten. :http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o297/SCOTIMUS76/siggy3.png (profile)•(talk)•( ) 10:32, March 28, 2012 (UTC) ::Okay. So I had Mark look at it since I've just never tinkered with these, and he said: "you need a universal navbox design, and then create sub-templates from that" ::He also said he'd import the default nav boxes, and style those. ::Here is the full documentation for it as seen on Runescape Wiki. :::http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o297/SCOTIMUS76/siggy3.png (profile)•(talk)•( ) 20:13, March 28, 2012 (UTC) Solution for multiple navboxes To make them collapsible... and they should also include "view", "talk" and "edit" links, like the "Houses By Region" Navboxes on AWOIAF--Gonzalo84 02:53, March 25, 2012 (UTC) House Baratheon family tree I have no idea how to alter it... but I think Gendry and Barra Waters should be added, since Jon is in the Stark family tree.--Gonzalo84 19:12, March 28, 2012 (UTC) :I was thinking about this too when I was making the refresher guide. The only difference is that Jon is widely known to be Ned's bastard, while Gendry & Barra are not widely known to be Robert's. That shouldn't matter for "us" though, since it's for reference sake. As for adding them, yeah... that's all you, Owen. lol ::http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o297/SCOTIMUS76/siggy3.png (profile)•(talk)•( ) 08:46, March 30, 2012 (UTC) Wordmark Oh well, was worth a shot. if it's not up in the morning, I'll start bugging people in the "trouble channel" about it. :P :http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o297/SCOTIMUS76/siggy4.png (profile)•(talk)•( ) 09:14, March 30, 2012 (UTC) Referencing I've always put them before, as that was the practice on several other wikis I have worked on. However, I use the rule-of-thumb of "If in doubt, do it how Wikipedia does it," so switching the references to after punctuation might be a better idea. Great work on the new backdrop btw, the Wiki looks pretty cool now.--Werthead 11:27, March 30, 2012 (UTC)